DA Confusion for the 17/18th of February, 2012

Confused? Bewildered?

Have your DA questions answered here.

102 thoughts on “DA Confusion for the 17/18th of February, 2012

  1. I am confused and bewildered on the wordplay for 1A, 25A, 23D, 27D and 31A
    I don’t think I have the right answer for 30A.

    I liked 14D, 9A and 11A.

  2. Rupert, I’m a little confused myself.

    1A: letters 4,5,6 relate to 20D. Little may be first letter only but not sure of the rest.
    25A: last 5 letters homophone of male…
    23D: I read this two ways so get 2 possible answers. I am angling for reeflike answer.
    27D: double defn. Its pretty straightforward this one.
    31A: work on the stampeded word…

    I need a clue for 8D or 12A please…

  3. 1A take tail off another word for devil and insert a synonym of 20D
    25A the first letter is obvious, the rest is a bit iffy
    27D tinned meat @ unwanted mail
    31A anagram of stampeded, chuck the sport out
    30A think plates not country

  4. 30A: thanks JJ. “little” is not a good word IMO.

    Also, can you try to be be a bit less direct? Some here want to not have the solutions on a plate….

  5. Too quick for me Keith E

    12A synonym for snake and nag
    8D think pre nuptials

    25A where does the male come from

  6. Keith E , point taken, I was of the opinion that you entered this thread at your own risk.
    By the way, how is reef like and male goose less direct than plate ?

    I must be missing something with 25A. If I’m after a homophone for Ukraine, then how does kraine (crane) = male goose.

  7. Help needed for 5D and 5A. I may have second word of 5D. I think I have 6D, but not entirely sure.
    Geoff

  8. 5A: T + lots = TTFN
    5D: The bouncer is involved in what appears to be DA’s favourite sport (or at least the one that comes up most often in this crossword).

    27D: I still don’t get the first definition. Devon’s alternative could be DVN or EO or Cornwall, but nothing to do with the answer.
    23D: I was reading it with the vowels reversed, so “song” is the definition.

  9. 25A: I was thinking that you crane your neck to take a gander at something. Geese and cranes aren’t even in the same order, so it can’t be a straight definition.

  10. rupert.
    27D – we call it devon, WW2 it was bully beef for the poms, the GI’s had something else
    the curse of 24d

  11. Once again a lot of fun although I think my brain must have been very foggy ….. Took me a while to wake up to the “swingers” in 8D (had the answer, but not the logic) and went off on the wrong track for “divine” in 15A. Like Keith E., when I’ve visited this site I’ve appreciated that contributors have made a real effort to assist without spoilers. Thank you all – I appreciate the thoughtfulness!

  12. Off to a flying start, had 15 in before going shopping at 0800. The shingles still causing discomfort. Added two more a moment ago, 15D and 30A, so have all of LHS bar 1D and 11A, plus three on RHS. Haven’t gone looking for clues above yet, that might come later. Greetings to all.

  13. Finished, I think (23D!) but had to Google the china. In 8D is Tiger one of the ‘swingers’?

  14. Really struggling with this one – NE corner still an annoying sea of little white squares. I have an answer for 16 that fits the clue but doesn’t exist within my experience or dictionary – is this Australiana again?

  15. Thanks, Rupert. You learn something new every day! I’ve now progressed a bit, and I’m assuming 5a is also Oz-ish. Can’t make any sense of the clue for 23, and can’t see where the last four letters of 18d relate to the clue.

  16. I noticed above someone having a problem with 23D. Any medium-age teacher would tell you about small compartments for study. This is a homophone (I think). I’m now down to thirteeen. Struggling on.

  17. 25A? Home inthe past of an evil despot? Is this a lousy clue, or have I the wrong place? Shouldn’t there be a ‘have a’ in there somewhere?

  18. 23d – got there now. Interestingly, when I finally thought to look up my answer in my dictionary, it gave the alternative meaning with the same spelling, which would make it a double def without the need for ‘broadcast’ at all.
    I join others in being puzzled by the exact intention in 25a – stretching one’s neck to get a look seems a bit tenuous. Anybody got any better ideas?

  19. Well, I have filled in all except (as above – 0959) 1D and 11A. But I have grave doubts about the first word of 8D. River in WA, or exchange? Or neither? Will have to get the grey matter into overdrive.

  20. 27d devon is one type of procesed meat, the answer is an alternative
    type.
    23d. If I have right answer then homophone is dodgy, emphasis is on a different syllable.
    24d don’t get the people sent up bit.

    Am completely lost on 8d. Originally had spot check which seemed to fit wordplay and def but not more recently added cross letters

  21. Arthur 1d is a type of iron. Think decreaser. I don’t get the crews finishing early bit.
    11d is a composer. Beethoven’s fifth gives the third letter of answer. I

  22. nn, Bohemian in 8D refers to last four letters only. Its the first four letters I’m having a problem with, or at least 2 & 4. (1137 above).

  23. nn the people in 24D are letters 1-4 reversed. 5th letter is day’s first

    Arthur, the way in 8D is the usual two letter one, swingers are 3-5 reversed I think

  24. All out before coming to the forum, but had to google 30a to confirm – after spending 15 fruitless minutes looking at a map of China.
    Arthur, nn, look at the buck ….
    Again in The Age, a DA answer has overlapped with the general knowledge crossword….unless I have my composers wrong.
    Some great clues today..2d, 15d,16a…
    Happy with 27d as a dd, both are varieties of the same meat.
    I must be the only person whi can’t see it , but where is the swimmer in 13d?

  25. It seems I have wrong answer for 24d then.
    BRD I can’t see the swimmer either but this is at least in part because I have precisely none of the letters in the answer!

  26. Nn, 24d is not the answer you probably have, but both can be forms of 27d. S
    Days first is one of the Hallmarks of the clue….

  27. BRD and nn – the swimmer is the one referred to in the very fine poem whose last line starts ‘in which I eat my gravender…’ (Don’t know if that will come up if you google it, but when it’s late enough for full spoilers I’ll post the whole thing.)

  28. Just finished. Loved 15a when it finally clicked. Also 26d. Not sure about ‘near capital’ part of 15d. I’ll chase Mary’s clue for the evasive swimmer.

  29. Sandy. I interpret capital as being first rate. This gives letters 7 & 8. I really hate this sort of clue too convoluted msade up of too many fragments of words.

  30. Mary, thanks for the reference, I now have the swimmer.

    Absolutely had no idea such a thing existed; was aware of a few alternative uses of the term though.

  31. nn, “crews finishing early” in 1D is a classic DA trick. It’s a word meaning crews, with the last letter moved to the opening position.

  32. nn, I agree about 15, both your interpretation and your dislike of clues like this. They almost always have to be justified after the event, having got the answer from definition and crossers. I really can’t imagine anyone working out and filling in 15d as their first one in. (If anyone has done just this, I’ll eat my hat, having first taken it off to you!)
    Apart from doubts already expressed by others on here (eg 25), I’m left with two I can’t parse satisfactorily, 2d and 18d. In 18d, where do the last four letters come from?

  33. Mary, 18d I’m with you; the only element unaccounted for is ‘by’, and it’s a bit of a stretch to see how the last 4 come from this.
    In 2d, I think ‘pointlessly believe’ gives letters 1-4, doctor is 6 and 7, and hold gives 5,8,9.

  34. Thanks KM and nn – I see 2d now. I kept getting distracted by a basket to put flowers and vegetables in!

  35. No, no further advanced, on 1 & 8D, 11A. Will probably just put aside till paper comes on Monday, since I couldn’t interpret kind hints given above. I think it possible my 8D is right, I just can’t fit all of the clue to it. Pool went well this afternoon, its now time for me to get evening meal going. CU.

  36. 15A & D, 30A the last in. Agree with Mary re 15D – well, I did think of it with just letters 3 5 and 7 to go on so maybe don’t completely agree. 14D a giveaway.

    Had the first word of 8D wrong – I was thinking of the wrong kind of swingers social gathering where keys are put in a bowl…

  37. Managed to get this week’s out, except for 1A and 30A, while not agreeing with some of the solutions.
    Liked the surface of 11A, 10A, 21 A, 7D, 8D, 13D, and 17D. Similar quibbles to ones mentioned above, eg 18 D and 25A. Like 22A’s indicator, but not the definition. Not really an &lit?

    For me ‘devon’s alternative’ in 27 A was ‘fritz’, as South Australians would remember. Anything and anyone German-sounding was renamed or interned during the war. Don’t agree with 27D’s solution as a synonym for ‘devon’. Not the same thing at all.
    Not sure about 20D’s grammar, or unbelievable, timeless, except in a very narrow context. Don’t really get the link between 3D, 20D and letters 4-6 of 1A.
    And have never heard of letters 2-4 of 4D for ‘rental movie’. Or the definition. Or am I missing something?

  38. Gayle, I didn’t mind letters 2-4 of 4d, except that it’s a bit outdated – doesn’t it come from the days before everything changed to DVD’s?
    I think it’s late enough to let the swimmer out of the bag:-
    There is a fine stuffed chavender, a chavender or chub,
    That decks the rural pavender, the pavender or pub,
    In which I eat my gravender, my gravender or grub.
    (I apologise if I sent anyone off on a wild gander chase with my earlier hint – I had no idea until I googled ‘gravender’ myself, just to check, that there is actually a poet called Gravender, who didn’t write the above!)

  39. Gayle. 27d I don’t think the answer is meant to be a synonym just something you might eat as an alternative if you didn’t have any Devon. We used to have beef german when i was young. Chicken roll was another alternative sandwich filling as was the leftovers from the previous night’s roast.

  40. And I have no idea how unbelievable has anything to do with the answr to 20d. Timeless is a stretch although 3d connection seems OK

  41. Arthur you probably had an 8d just before you married mrs C. 1d seems to have you in (very) hot water!

  42. nn, I finally saw what the descriptive word in 8D was. Stupid of me. But no, I didn’t have one. Drove from Laverton to Penrith on 9/3/56, was married there on 10th. So, 56th anniversary coming up soon.
    Still no idea on the missing two,1D, 11A.

  43. Arthur, in 1D the def is words 1-3. Mrs C will have been through several by now in her lifetime. Some wouldn’t have needed filling with water though.

    11A is a well known composer with six letters, one of which is the fifth in Beethoven. This bores into the word for ‘more virile’. My wife said that people don’t say the word which is letters 1, 2, 4-6 but I guess it is a word. Hope this helps.

  44. Oh Mary, thanks for your take on 20D. That’s a lot better as I had thought the clue was very poor but it’s actually very good!

  45. @ArthurC re yours of 10.54am yesterday. Please explain the riddle of the study and the carol as I’m not there yet.

    I still don’t get how you get the gander from the crane either!

  46. Sorry nn, I’ve just seen that I almost repeated your hints on 1D. I’m working on a Blackberry and it’s harder to read the tiny text, not to mention type!

  47. I didn’t know 30A – my guess at the two boys (Porter and Flanders) turned out to be wrong. That’s three weeks in a row I haven’t successfully completed the grid. I must be slipping!

    I remembered the desks in 23D from school, though I hadn’t remembered how to spell them, and a google search came up empty. Another search this morning with an extra R was more fruitful.

    Thanks to everyone for sorting me out on the wordplays. I take it no-one has a satisfactory explanation for 25A yet?

  48. 25a: You crane (your neck to see)/You (have a) gander (at)???

    30a: Have E_L_D_N, but can’t see any crockery :(

  49. First post.
    Mary, BRD, nn, my take on the last 4 letters of 18D is in the sense of: “I’ll be in Sydney by Friday”.

  50. 23D We used to spell the place to study with two r’s, as Rupert found, and pronounce it with the stress on the second syllable, which I wouldn’t think was a homophone. But online dictionary searches mostly showed the stress on the first syllable so I guess it’s all right.

    30A I hadn’t heard of either. The cross letters are C_L_D_N. The name looks French, and Wiki says it might be.

  51. Monica, I don’t think it’s a common term, certainly as a bloke fairly poorly educated in the home wares area I’d never heard of it. It may help your googling to know the turned boy is proverbially smart, and his associate may head a mafia family.

  52. DJ , nice one, I’m sure that’s the correct interpretation.

    Gayle, we had them too when I was at school a lifetime ago; it appears they have been renamed cubicles in the interim.

  53. Re 25 A. The only place I found for ‘gander’ as a verb was word-detective.com:
    ‘The use of “gander” to mean “look” comes from the long, flexible neck of the goose (immortalized in the “gooseneck” lamps once common in offices). While female geese no doubt look at things too, it is the gander of a gaggle that plays sentinel, craning his neck to examine any intruder or possible danger. “Gander” in this “peer at” sense first appeared in print in 1887, as a verb. ‘
    Found a couple of references for ‘gander’ as a noun, including in the OED, indicating that it may originally have been the name for another waterbird like stork, or gannet (but crane wasn’t mentioned) and possibly mistakenly came to be used for the male goose.

  54. DJ I think you are right about 18d, but it is a bit of a stretch. I’d never say I’d be in Sydney _ _ _ _ Friday (although others might).

    Mary thanks for the take on 20D I hadn’t looked at it that way and certainly makes the timeless part quite clever. I’m still not entirely happy with unbelievable = T _ _ _ as you really need the word “story” after T _ _ _ for it to mean unbelievable, so he probably should have clued it as unbelievable tale, timeless.

    Regarding 23D, online dictionary defines the answer (as well as the song definition) as “a compartment in a cloister, similar to a carrel” . We called them carrels with the emphasis on the second syllable as I suspect others (above) did, hence our confusion with this on. I’ve not heard of them referred to as the word that is the answer.

    As a matter of interest had anybody hear of 30A before today?

    On the plus side lots of very good ones this week. 14A my favourite.

    Arthur if you haven’t worked out 1D yet I suggest you do something to take your mind off it, preferably something mundane that doesn’t require much mental effort and just let your mind wonder. I find ironing a good activity in which to let my mind drift, perhaps you could give Mrs C a hand and see if the answer comes to you when you least expect it.

  55. Gayle, in my limited circles at least “have a gander” is in fairly common parlance, and is generally taken to be an invitaton to look at something rather than an offer of a male goose. However the connecton between Kraine/crane and gander remains very tenuous to my mind; while the young crane is apparently a colt, and the crane group is well served by quite a few collective nouns, I can find no indication that male and female cranes have any distinguishing terms. So, it appears to me we’re left with ‘crane ones neck = have a gander’, which is a bit of a stretch if you’ll pardon the expression.

    Having said that, it still felt right when it came to me – as I recall, the moment was accmpanied with a forehead slap and an exclamation of “You’re joking!” which startled the wife’s morning tea group. For me at least, the clue worked, although it may not stand up to any level of technical analysis.

    And Arthur, if clearing your mind with the domestic chores NN suggests doesn’t help you get 1D out, perhaps a nice relaxing sauna might assist.

  56. BRD thanks for 20a help. That’s thrown up a problem with 15d, for which I presently have a synonym for ‘capital’ as in ‘very good’, but no word play. Now I understand why :S

  57. Monica, capital is not the def but one of three wordplay elements here.

    Some have commented that they dislike clues such as these with somewhat complex multiple components, and I will admit I needed the crossletters and had to back fit the wordplay. Still I find there is an immense sense of achievement in getting such a clue out, even if the wordplay is sorted out after the event. I was left shaking my head after satisfying myself that every element in the clue contributed to the final solution. To me, this is much of the attraction of the DA experience.

  58. nn, I think it’s OK to have t— as just the adjective, without the story to go with it. My Chambers dictionary gives one of the definitions as ‘hardly to be believed’.
    18d – again, the dictionary gives one of the meanings of —- as ‘when a certain time comes’. (I think we all get mesmerised by internet aids these days, but sometimes only a really good dictionary will do. I’m glad I hauled my big Chambers English Dictionary with me from England.) Incidentally, in the North of England, the same sort of function is served by ‘while’ to mean ‘until’. So you could say eg ‘I’ll be with you —- 5 and I can stay while 6’.
    BRD, I’m also happy with ‘have a gander’, likewise ‘have a butchers’, which is Cockney rhyming slang (Butcher’s hook = look). But I agree it’s a bit iffy to get there from ‘crane’, which is not the looking so much as the getting in position to look.

  59. 25A Like BRD, I found a ready association with crane (one’s neck) and (have a) gander. Don’t have a problem with the grammar, now that I’ve learned gander can be a verb on its own.

    I found this week’s a bit odd in that it seems to have been relatively easy to solve, but with a sense that things aren’t quite right with many of the clues grammatically. I also agree with Robin’s wife, I think it was, who said no-one says 11A letters 1,2,4-6 for ‘more virile’. Not even an exclamation or question mark! But liked the clue anyway. Wonder why ‘boring’ and not ‘bores’.

    Am surprised though that others don’t find a problem with the switching grammar and semantics in 3D, 20D and 1A 4-6. Or is it just me? I can only get 3D = 20D by adding something to make the solutions identical in grammatical function. eg add an ‘ly’ or ‘ity’, or ‘the’ or a hyphen. Similarly, I can only get letters 4-6 of 1A = 20D, by adding something like ‘the’, ‘of’, ‘sigma’. I just don’t get it/them.

    Favourite this week is 7D for the surface and wordplay. Also liked 12A once I read it a couple of times to get the surface, and 8D I enjoyed for the fun definition.

  60. PS Did anyone have a butcher’s at DA’s quick this week? From past comments by Trippers, I think that would only be in the SMH and not The Age. It has a martial arts theme with 9 of the clues. The only cryptic one (ie with a ?) I don’t understand. Can someone help with:

    Chinese bear versed in kung-fu? The answer is ‘panda’ (which conjures up a humorous PAN + DA). But what does it mean? Does it refer to the Kung Fu Panda animated movies which I haven’t seen? Did they speak in rhyme? My only guess, no doubt off the mark and I’ll probably groan when someone explains it.

  61. BRD I guess to a certain extent the complex clues are a matter of taste. I’m not against all of them, but some just get a bit too convoluted. I liked 15A, I worked out the answer from the def (eventually) but it took me a lot longer before I gained the satisfaction of understanding the wordplay. The ones I don’t like are where he puts in several bits of words that are (often rather loose) synonyms of words in the clue. Then he indicates that you need to use some of the word with something vague like “nearly” so you have no idea what the word is that you need to shorten or by how much. On the other hand something like 20D which has a deletion at least tells you which letter to delete.
    The other problem I have with convoluted clues like 15D is that there are so many words in the clue it is very difficult to work out the def sometimes.
    But the worst type of these is where the answer to the definition is some obscure word and then he fills up the rest of the clue with bits of words.
    The one I had real trouble with this week was 30A. I had presumed this was because of my ignorance of the type of China, but others seemed to have the same problem. So in this clue we have an answer that few people will have heard of, wordplay that has a backward boy’s name in it (how many possibilities for that are there if you don’t have the answer?) followed by the last three letters that I still don’t understand in terms of wordplay. To further confuse things there is a synonym of boy in the answer, but it isn’t turned. So even with all the cross letters it is almost impossible to work it out unless you’ve heard of the type of China.
    On another one in 29A I take “losing seat” to mean removing the last letter of a word. Not sure why the last letter in an across clue would be described as the seat of the word?

    Am with Gayle in that I found much of it easy to get this week but lots of odd little quirks with grammar etc. Answers that just didn’t quite fit but were pretty close. Accuracy appears to have made way for clever surface reading, but that’s DA and I’ll be back next week!

  62. As a newbie to this forum (not DA) I find it an interesting addition to my enjoyment of DA. I try to come here only after completing the crossword, but admit I have visited sometimes when I am still stuck on an answer by mid week. Really interesting to read comments of fellow trippers. DA always a source of education for me. Never heard of 1A & 30A before and had to resort to Google.

  63. Thanks, crew! Yes, I now have 1D. Have to look for 11A now. Cricketers having a drinks break atm. I think I know a composer whose name will fit there, have to think how it fits the clue. First name Gustav, iirc. What I think it is the replacement of one letter (in 3rd position) with another, not sure how the clue implies that. But I’ve put Gustav in, so will claim completion, but still confused by this one.

  64. Well done Arthur!

    The consensus seems to be ‘more virile’ = ‘MALER’, but I don’t think it’s DA’s best ever work.

    nn, I agree on 30A, the combination of an obscure def with open ended wordplay – as you say, names could be anything – makes it very difficult to solve.
    15D however I think must be conceded to DA – nothing dodgy, clear def, all components of wordplay are quite fair. If it was always easy, we wouldn’t be here at all! Must write a note to myself in big letters: IGNORE the SURFACE! DA’s surfaces and misdirection are what sets him apart, and I’m prepared to cut him some slack with the odd bit of convoluted grammar now and then.

  65. BRD agree I’ll cut him some slack on 15D as at least it was possible to get the answer from the def and once I’d got it was able to see some of the wordplay, but two chopped off words and an abbreviation together with a very long clue just gets very messy.

    While Arthur had some trouble identifying Gustav in 11A I found that one reasonably straightforward, partly because I’d seen DA use Beethoven’s fifth a while ago in his brilliant Brahms and List clue. After getting the answer it wasn’t too hard to see what he meant by the rest of it even if the word is a bit dodgy.

    Am still puzzled by 30A wordplay, presumably the last three letters are somehow indicated by “to another” but I don’t see how.

  66. nn for 30a last 3 letters think of the most famous Oz cricketer – just another boy

  67. thanks spijk, if that is the explanation it makes my previous comments about this clue even more accurate. Never heard of him referred to as just another boy. If another boy clues that, we could have almost anything as the last three letters!

  68. Regarding 30A, I am certainly familiar with the “china”. I bought some very good Korean variety in Soel many years ago, and have seen good examples in Japan. Not so common in Oz, but it is around.

  69. DJ, you culture vulture! Very impressive.

    I checked some of our green plates to see if they may have been 30A, but all it said was ‘Dishwasher Safe’!

  70. Thanks all for putting me right on the boys. Alec and Don make better sense than the Dale and ConI had. I was unhappy there was no container indicator!

  71. I don’t think 30a refers to Bradman, it is just two boy’s names, one of them reversed. I had heard of the word but had to look up it’s meaning (I thought it might be a colour) but that is ok, part of the appeal of DA. I think it is a pretty good clue overall.

    The wordplay I need help with is 29a (I have an answer which is almost certainly correct). Any hint, direct or otherwise, would be appreciated.

  72. JK, I saw it as out – t in impetus = drive; I note nn is note very happy with ‘losing seat’ to indicate dropping the ‘t’, especially in an across clue.

  73. Gayle, I think the ‘versed’ in the Kung-Fu Panda clue simply means ‘proficient in’ or ‘skilled at’ doesn’t it? It must refer to the movie I think, as you suggested.

  74. Viewing everything once again on the 24″ imac, what a relief! It is interesting that out of the 34 clues we all had concerns over the same few.
    The one that is still tricky to me is 18D, the last 4 letters have been discussed above but do I take it that the first bit is “Lo, win” or ‘observe’ = LO and ‘gain’ = WIN?

    30A I had a DRESDEN mindset until it just had to something else because of the cross letters 1 and 3!

  75. Well, once again all completed corretly, but several clues I do not fully understand, eg where is the snake in 12A? Is the PGA in 8D a golf reference? What is the seat in 29A? OU? And whence the come in 18D. I solve these things, I often can’t fathom the construction of the clue. Help appreciated with above.

  76. 12A: Snake like a road.
    8D: Yes. They swing clubs.
    29A: Seat = last letter, in this case, of “out”, so “out losing seat” = OU
    18D: From a deconstruction of the clue, “by” = COME. The closest I can get is in the sense of “the milkman has come” = “the milkman has been by”.

  77. Additional thought on ‘come’ in 18d – I’ve just remembered that there’s an English folk song set by Vaughan Williams that’s called ‘Seventeen come Sunday’. Another example of ‘come’ as ‘by the time of’.

  78. I think “come Sunday” means “on Sunday”, rather than “by Sunday”. Likewise “Come the school holidays, we’ll go on a trip” means when the school holidays arrive, not sometime before, as in “by the school holidays we hope to have the kitchen painted”.

  79. My dictionary actually gives an example for its definition of ‘come’ as ‘when a certain time comes’ :- “Come five o’clock, I shall be exhausted”. You could certainly replace ‘come’ in this case with ‘by’.

  80. Keith – sorry, ‘come the raw prawn’ doesn’t seem to be in Chambers English Dictionary so I don’t know how offended I should be! (But it couldn’t be replaced with ‘by the raw prawn’, so it doesn’t seem to help with 18d.)

  81. Obviously the least Australian person here should get to explain what “to come the raw prawn” means! As I understand it, it means to insult ones intelligence. But “by the raw prawn” is just a homophone for what you do at the fish market!

  82. Hi,
    Not sure whether the following were cleared up in the comments above:
    1. What was the concensus on “sata” in 1A? Does “little” mean chop the “n” off “satan”?
    2. How do we arrive at the “ai” in “formulaic”?
    Thanks,
    Grant

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