DA Confusion for the 1st/2nd of July, 2011

Confusions will be sorted out right here.


116 thoughts on “DA Confusion for the 1st/2nd of July, 2011

  1. 19D: Are Queen’s 3Ds horses?
    9A: I don’t understand the wordplay of the first 5 letters.

    I’d heard of most of the themed entries, but not of the theme himself, which made it a lot harder.

    I guessed right on 10A, wrong on 22D, 8D and 21D. Not a good average. I may wait till tomorrow to find out the answer to 20A, though given I can’t find it in google, I’ve probably got it wrong, too.

  2. @Gayle: We were exposing DA’s misdirection. The deceit is part of the puzzle, and giving it away counts as a (minor) spoiler.

  3. 19D: You’ll respect DA when you get it. The answer to your q is ‘no’.
    9A: I don’t get all of the wordplay, but the first 5 words is the definition.
    20A: I feel sure you are right with it.

  4. Rupert, Roger that and regrets. Just an attempt to recover from my mistake with humour – as it was already too late – and I still hadn’t got it!

  5. Gosh, a nice piece of work today!

    re 9ac, my read of the wordplay involves a particular salt, resisting the temptation to read ‘long’ as ‘L’, and of course the foggy ending implied by others.
    re 20ac, I think this is a slip – no reason to have referred to only 6ac and not 22dn, as it’s the theme’s name in an ‘excellent’ role.

  6. 9A: Is “long” defining letters 1, 3, 4 and 5? I don’t get where letter 2 comes from in that case.

    19D: Still not getting it. Is “proposed” cluing the first 3 letters or the first 4 (it could be either, in my reading).

    20D: No, I was wrong :(

  7. 9A: Rupert – you have it. You’re a genius.
    1,3,4,5. Yep
    “lab tossing salt” is another letter.
    spray is 4 more.

    19D I got this one. “proposed by” = first 4 letters.
    Last 3 letters refers to 3D.

  8. 9A: No genius here, @nn. I tried several salts of aluminium, including the one everyone has in their bathroom, before remembering DA’s well-known arts background.

    19D (letters 4-7): Still sounds like horses to me, or an educational establishment SW of Melbourne, but not Queen’s 3Ds.

  9. 19D: And there, in the fifth link on Google, is the answer. Rather a higher ranking 3D than I was looking for.

  10. Just the Spooner one to go. I have an answer but am not very happy with it. Can’t see the complete wordplay and my answer is (4,5) not (9)
    And I can’t see wordplay in 1A

  11. @ Rupert: 19D. does the name Isaac Isaacs mean anything to you?

    @Peta: it’s a one-word answer for sure. Might seem like it’s (4,5) but in my dictionary (9). It’s a great Spoonerism.

  12. I spent a little too long trying to work out the wordplay and definition for 12,23 A. Once I had a few of the non crosslinked solutions, the solution for 6A, 22 D came to mind as a kind of pun, while still not getting 12, 23 A . Not being overly familiar with theme and linked solutions, I found this week’s challenging, but starting in the wrong place made it more so.

    Should 12,23 A also cross refer to 6 A, 22D? As 12, 23 A is written the definition IMHO appears inadequate and the clue doesn’t stand alone.

    re: 20A referring to 6A only and not 22D. May not be a slip as suggested, but deliberate?
    6A and 20 A solutions have a few things in common in grammar and reference.

  13. 12,23A. I think it stands on its own (doesn’t it?) but clearly the missed reference to 6A/22D is either an oversight or mischievous.
    20A: I think now that it would be deliberate, for personal reasons.

  14. Peta
    Need to separate back and stroke and get a 4 letter synonym for back and a 3 letter synonym for stroke and insert a reversed 2 letter abbreviation for a kind of record at letters 3 and 4.

  15. 19D: @RobT, I had never heard of him. It seems he held a similar job to that of Anand Satyanand.

    28A: My wife always refers to them just by the first syllable.

    6A/22D refers to 12A/23A, so I don’t think it’s necessary to link them back the other way, too. The definition of 12A/23A is the last word.

    20A is not related to 6A in any way except via 6A/22D, so I consider the omission an error. 6A has numerous other meanings.

  16. RobT
    Well I’m having a grumble either way – oversight or mischievous! I think the def is too broad – it’s a whole genre for goodness’ sake! The deceit with the def is okay with me, that’s the game DA sets and we play, but the wordplay’s pretty tricky too – lots of wrong paths you can take there … like I did! I managed to come up with 14 letters when counting every ‘odd’ one and then attempted to ‘madcap’ them to come up with another kind of def.

    I’d be keen to know if anyone gets 12,23A without having first got 6A, 22D. Going to have a cuppa now and collect myself.

  17. Thanks Gayle. I saw a reversed (and older) 2-letter abbreviation for a type of record at letters 7,8 and that threw me. Showing my age.

  18. 1A: @Peta, I did the same thing.

    12A/23A: @Gayle, since I didn’t know 6A/22D, I had to get 12A/23A from the cross letters, and 14A and 4D cluing me into the broad nature of the theme.

  19. @Rupert,
    I’m starting to feel as if I’m from Mars. In my view, there’s a major omission in 12A, 23A and I don’t see that there is an omission in 20 A, but instead that there are grounds for mentioning 6A only. Will concede to your expertise though and have that cuppa. It’s only a crossword I tell myself.

  20. Ah that’s interesting Rupert. I was wondering how other people ‘cracked’ it.

  21. I would consider circular references slightly messy on the part of the compiler.

    More often that I’d like I solve linked clues in the “wrong” order. In this case 12A/23A is something a 6A/22D (whatever that is) could be seen in.

  22. Rupert, it does say something about your skills and my relative lack of them….. I wouldn’t have got 14 A or 4D from the wordplay alone. Quite a few well-crafted clues this week ( I mean difficult, for me anyway, but enjoyable).

  23. I was fairly sure 4D was going to contain caught knight, reversed, but I didn’t get the answer until I also had the first and last letters.

    13D looked like it was most likely going to be the first and last pair that it actually has, and I solved 2D fairly early on, so guessing that the answer was a fish allowed me to work out the wordplay for confirmation. I thought at first that 6A/22D was going to be the name of the (very famous) founder of a company that makes such things, and then some description of the owner (DENTIST is too many letters). I never thought of the connection that the two clues actually have until much later (and wouldn’t have helped – I have a mental picture of 6D/22A from bowling and dancing (however attired) and I wouldn’t have connected him with 14A that way).

  24. @Rupert , You are still a genius in my book. I don’t get DA until tomorrow, but by the looks of the above I’d better not plan on doing much else for the day. Can’t tell from all your discussions if it is a brilliant one or just frustrating.

  25. Hi there,

    Still struggling with with 19D.

    While I’m struck by name of the NZ G-G, Anand Satyanand, I don’t see the names of any other vice-regals.

    Suggestions? I assume I have 3D.

  26. 19D: @CarlH, you don’t need to know the names of the people who hold the office, just the abbreviation for the office and its plural.

  27. Thanks Rupert. This leads me back to the question in your first post, “19D: Are Queen’s 3Ds horses?”.
    This homophone is what first leapt out at me – though the horizontals scratch (or nobble) this suggestion.
    Any further hints?

  28. Got it now.
    I was looking at the particular office as the definition itself.

  29. 19D: @CarlH, the answer is another member of the theme. The first four letters are a synonym for proposed, and the last three describe Messrs. Satyanand and Isaacs.

  30. @nn: If you know the theme (and I’d heard of five out of eight of them, apart from the theme itself), this isn’t a hard puzzle. I’d say 20A is the hardest, as it requires some internal knowledge of the themed item.

  31. Two to go… I should be getting on with a uni essay, so best I wrap this up quickly.

    14A: I hope this doesn’t follow the same esoteric logic as 20A. I know someone has highlighted ‘fish’, but it’s not leaping out at me.
    [Wasn’t 20A stretching the theme a tad?]

    13D: I can see the container and its contents, just stumbling over the ‘wanton nude’.

  32. 13D: Wanton is the anagrind, nude the fodder. Makes a very common first pair of letters and a very common last pair of letters.

    14A: Twinkling as in the twinkling of an eye, and one of DA’s favourite words for a short time. Snare is a three letter word for something you could also catch a fish with, and it loses it’s last letter. 6A/22D was the voice of the dentist.

  33. Thanks Rupert.

    On 13D: I was caught on the letter formation _ R _ W and its possible accommodation of a by-word for lager, rather than the brand _ R _ W _ .

    14A: Strangely, many of the less common elements of today’s theme are familiar to me, but I have not seen 14 across before and was surprised by the theme’s association with it.

    What do people think about 20A? Is the definition too obscure? Is it enough that the wordplay is reasonably clever and sees you over the line? I was familiar with 20A’s source, but I had no memory of the answer itself, and had to resort to Google.

  34. 20A: I didn’t get it – I was Googling for references to 27A Nations, like the economic summits, or the Boxer rebellion (or ultimate frisbee championships, apparently). Also, while I thoroughly enjoyed the thematic element 20A appears in, I only watched it once, some years ago, and don’t recall the names of any of the parts.

  35. OK got 8D with google’s help. 18A I’ve never heard of, but probably many things on that list, including 28A. Think I’ve got 11A, but still don’t understand how.

  36. 18A: Copy as in copying from someone else’s notes. Mannerism is often nervous.

  37. Thanks Rupert. Think I had that, but not overly impressed by jumbling of first bit (assuming I’ve got that right), but don’t understand the connection to theme. Am I missing the obvious yet again? Or have I just got it wrong?

  38. Pretty sure I’ve got 17, 6D, but don’t get wordplay or why reference isn’t to 6A as well as 22D. Maybe, because I don’t get wordplay.
    Haven’t done a DA for a while; so that may be the reason. But I found this week’s tricky even after I had the theme.
    Favorite clue was 7D, esp as I had first part wrong before getting themed x-letters (I had s-u–)

  39. I continue to be in awe of how you all manage to get so far so quickly with each week’s DA. (Rupert you are still a genius!)
    I have 6 of them so far, but several are just guesses. Despite above hints I’ve no idea on the theme, nor have I been able to get any of the linked clues with the possible exception of 19D. I have answer for this but if I’m right it is a rotten one. It isn’t helping me get 3D or 17,6D either

  40. thanks Rupert, just read your 14A hint. I had neon as the twinkling fish, but apparently not!
    Think I have the right one now, at least I can see some link with this particular fish to some of the other hints.

  41. And thanks to the rest of your hint for 14A (and with the help of Google), I at least have the right name for 6A,22D, revealing that I’d stuffed up 7D (quite literally, I had Stuff up as the answer!), will have to have another look at that now.

  42. have 7D now. fits the scalp infection part, but my original answer fitted the bugger bit much better, had assumed DA’s sense of humour was at work here, but apparently not.

  43. DA seems to have been quite lax in references to 6A/22D – sometimes just the first, sometimes just the second. As far as I can tell, all references to either are references to both.

    @FDR: 12A/23A is not the theme. 6A/22D is.

  44. 20A how “some 27A nations finish” is a bit obscure. Why 27A? If I have the reference to these nations right (in terms of the economic summit group) none of them finish this way.
    My only other thought is that maybe there are exactly this number of nations that do finish this way (will have to google them), but if so, then why “some”?
    Would never have got this without googling the theme and having all the cross letters. Have had to google quite a few others in the theme, although I’ve heard of him, I’m not at all familiar with most of the things he was in

  45. finished it now, some of the wordplays are pretty obscure (as are some of the theme’s work, at least to me). Can’t say as I particularly enjoyed it, but that’s probably because I’m not overly familiar with the theme. Did like 15A and (if I’ve interpreted box correctly) 17D, 6D.

    20A Have googled all the nations with that ending and only found 7 of them, so no closer to understanding the “some 27A ” bit. Unless you count a region in northern Iraq/southern Turkey as the eighth, although Wikipedia doesn’t list this as a nation (yet!?)
    Is this another example of DA’s inability to count? (ref seven ages of man recently)

  46. Yes, there are apparently 27A, but I’ve never heard of one of them (Dage). I agree with @nn that the “some” is unnecessary, although it may be deliberate confusion, as the statement is still true.

  47. Dage is a republic in the Russian Federation, so probably shouldn’t count. That would make nn right and 20A a candidate for DA Errors.

  48. 17, 6 D I think the omission of reference to 6A (22D only) may be deliberate as well. It adds to the deception and the surface when read in conjunction with 19 D as intended. All very regal and masculine. Inclusion of 6A would weaken it a bit I feel.

  49. Rupert, I’d not heard of Dage, was thinking of Kurd as the eighth. Have googled Dage, but from what Wikipedia states it is part of Russia, not a nation in its own right (if I’ve read it correctly).

  50. You may have it by now, but 20A is not a country, (although part of many) – it is the name of a character played by the theme. (I found a very handy wiki list relating to the theme – I wouldn’t have known some of the answers without this).
    I also found the answer for 28A as 4-5, not 9.
    Altogether I found this week very difficult to get into, it took ages to find the right theme, after going down the wrong track for a while, and Ii found the circular references very confusing – but got there eventually!

  51. None the wiser after reading all the above – with only 5 clues solved. Look forward to solution on Monday when I can ponder the intricate workings of DA’s convoluted mind.

  52. For those who think 17D, 6D is gold, I beg to differ. If the cricketing object was 17d, 6D with the emphasis on 17D, then it leaves a bit to be desired! (at first I thought I was missing something with this clue, but maybe DA is the one missing something).Brings a tear to my eye just thinking about it.

  53. Comment awaiting moderation? And I’ve only had a cup of tea!
    Great music. Enjoy the reward for those who got this week’s out, and a bit of light relief for those still battling on. Sorry nn, no relief for cricketers. Not a sport for anthems? (not that I know of anyway)

  54. Finally broken through and am enjoying this now. Have to agree with those who suggest 17D,6D is worthy of DA gold. Great fun.

  55. nn, Started off by looking up 20 A, which I wasn’t familiar with, and stumbled on the music which was apparently in a memorable scene. Just serendipity that the other two linked to the clues are also used as football anthems. Had to give this week’s away… don’t do well with visual themes .

    Whatever happened to Robin? He went to find the paper and never came back.

  56. Good morning, Gayle, and thank you for asking after me! I had denied myself access to DA Trippers until this morning due to an attack of optimism.
    I did get the paper finally which only marginally improved my chances of solving DA this week.
    I am looking forward now to working through all confusion comments to date. I did not do very well at all I’m afraid – hats off to all of you who are so brilliant at these puzzles.

  57. I hope spmeone might explain why 17,6 D is DA gold – Guess it will have to wait till tomorrow. Finished yesterday with some help from you all – thank you- and found Peter’s “Vale” particularly helpful! But also some independent triumphs !
    Strange that I dont understand the Gold award though!?

  58. Thanks for the helpful comments above, as this was my first DA after a month or so of travelling I needed them! Could someone explain the word play for 12,23a – I get the rum backwards, and the scrambled lewis, but how does ‘turning heartless’ become ‘dding’? Not sure about the word play in 4d either, and is it fair to use an abbreviated title? Thanks.

  59. @Sam turning = eddying, heartless => remove middle letter to leave edding
    4D is Sir C backwards in “pill a”. I wasn’t keen on the abbreviated title in this either.

    And welcome back Robyn.

    Speaking of the missing regulars, no word from Arthur this week, hope all is well

  60. I didn’t mind the abbreviated form for 4D – common usage in our house.
    Loved 17, 6D – Gold that continues DA’s pushing of the boundaries.

  61. @GB, thanks for explaining why 17D, 6D is DA Gold. Very clever, I completely missed the cricket reference.

  62. Finally cracked it.

    28A is another DA fail. The answer does NOT mean what he thinks it means – try googling it.

    19D makes no sense to me whatsoever, and I don’t get the reference for the second part of 3D.

    In retrospect, I get 17,6D, but it’s not “gold”. It’s away too obscure and a little clumsy even when you do get it.

  63. GB – thank you for explaining 17,6,D! Amusing certainly – but silver rather than gold I think!

  64. 17D/6D: I had interpreted the first part as how a beginner waltzes. I don’t think either that or the cricket interpretation are Gold. The first word of the answer isn’t really clued.

  65. 19D: The elipsis carries “production by 22D” from the previous clue, and that is the definition. The first four letters are clued by proposed, and the last three are the plural of the initials of the job title of the Queen’s most important 3D in these parts.

  66. @ John, I also wondered about the definition in 28A unless it is a colloquialism too.
    I think the ref in 19D to 3D is that the GGs are agents of the queen.
    @Rupert, I also thought 17d,6d had something to do with a dance before I read others cricketing references. I also thought it might have had something to do with a TV or perhaps even an egg carton, hence the ellipses connecting it with19D. Am still wondering if there is a connection between the cricketing reference in 17d, 6d and the answer to 19D. i.e. if the box did have 17d,6d, there wouldn’t be room for anything else that should be there, possibly resulting in undue compression on the first half of 6D resulting in 19D???
    (I’ve never like ellipses in crosswords anyway!)

  67. At this point I’m wondering if DA is reading this and having a quiet chuckle about all our cricketing references, when in fact, all he meant was a simple dance step…

  68. You could be right RobT!
    Although if I’m right he may just express it as maniaca _ _ y.

  69. DA isn’t reading this if he has any sense. He’s supposed to be having 10 days R&R in Indonesia. How does he keep up with his output without going crazy. Cacchinate- what a word!

  70. Woke with 19d and 28a to go :) Reading through the thread helped solve 19d, but still can’t crack 28a :(

  71. Monica, 28A
    zest = tang, leaves=bails (as in runs away, bails out). Spoonerism> bangtails
    Some above have said it’s usually just the first word that people use. (That’s my experience although I’m familiar with ‘bang tails’.) Some have said it’s a one 9 letter word in some dictionaries, and others 2 words.

  72. I’d never heard of bangs or bangtails until this DA. All dictionaries I’ve looked at define bangtails (one word) as a racehorse. I’ve also found bangs in reference to the hair cut, but not bang tails (two words), although I’m guessing bangs is an abbreviation of this. But as DA clued it as one word, it is probably incorrect as the one word term appears to refer to racehorse.
    In any case I’ve learnt one (or two?) new words today!

  73. nn: I saw ‘bangtails’ as clearly one word. Checking the one-word answer exists the clue works perfectly for a racehorse answer.

  74. Bangtails is a way of cutting a horses tail, and by extension a racehorse with its tail cut that way. The tail is cut straight across, and I assume the human hair style gets its name from the resemblance.

  75. thanks Rupert, that clears that up for me. All I could find in the dictionaries was a definition saying bangtails was slang for a racehorse, no mention of cutting the tails. All makes sense now.

  76. I found Friday’s DA to be a disappointing one. Try as I might I couldn’t break into it. So much depended on 12A, 23A which I thought should have been a (6’1, 7) rather than a (7, 7).
    Oh well, I’ve learnt another convention (odd = RUM) which made me regret the time spent on Lewis Carrol. This was because I had decided the ‘Odd twist’ was a clue towards CHARLES DODGSON. (which is a 7,7!).
    I wondered such things as ‘was The Mad Hatter’ a debt collector?’, ‘is it the Queen of Hearts in 19D?’ and ‘where does Jabberwock fit?’

  77. Robin, thankyou for the wonderful piece on bangtails.
    Regarding your rum theme: at least you had one!
    From what I’ve learned, the current convention is that the apostrophe is not included in the word count – although this may be only a partial understanding of the rules and someone might correct this or elaborate.

  78. Thanks, that’s interesting, Gayle. Something else to resolve! I’ve seen a lot of clues with an apostrophe, at least I think I have. Maybe not clues by DA.

    My daughter tells me she has not heard of ‘bangtails’ but immediately knew ‘bangs’ as a straight fringe” (her words). I think DA got his definition a little wrong.

  79. I think we’re being a bit harsh on the bangtail issue. I found the unhyphenated version in an on-line dictionary (The free dictionary.com). It applied to a horse’s tail cut straight across. Surely this could then be applied to a human do a la “ponytail”.
    A little late – sorry.

  80. On the apostrophe, it’s only the possessive variety that goes unmarked, i.e. DIRECTOR’S CHAIR would be clued as (7, 5), while IT AIN’T ME BABE would be (2, 3’1, 2, 4).

  81. Thanks RobT . Missed your earlier comment in haste – Yes -I agree with YOU.

  82. Thanks, AS, that’s good to know the rule regarding using an apostrophe in the letter count. I must have seen them before somewhere but as DA has followed that rule this time, all is well.

  83. Looking back at earlier comments, nn, I see the ‘Sir C’ reference and the ‘pill a’ for 4D. The Sir becomes RIC of course but why C? Also how does ‘during ball’ = PILL A? I have that feeling I’m being thick here.
    What an opportunity DA had to have a ‘Black’ knight somewhere in the clue though!

  84. OK! Thanks Jonathan. Cricket again I guess. Another one for the list.

  85. Moving right along to 8th/9th of July: is 8D the name of a person? While I hadn’t heard of 19A, and didn’t know 26A from a hole in the ground, I was able to guess them correctly, or at least Google confirmed that my answers where the right sort of thing to fit the clue. However, I can’t make the same sort of guess with 8D.

    Otherwise a decent puzzle – 1 cup of coffee, though it was pretty cold by the end! I particularly liked 10A, 15D and 4D.

  86. 26A: You really can’t get it from the cross letters and the fodder? There’s only three vowels, which seriously limits your options. It does not start with a vowel, the first word is a name and the second word is the type of geological feature it is.

  87. 8A: Got it, thanks. And the only god-like part of him is his hands. I remember 86.

  88. Nup. I have every second letters but all I see is no vowels but a Y. I have two Ls so an easy anagram is out of the question. I can’t fit a geological feature into my second word, either. I’ll mull over it.

  89. 26A: Thanks. Got it. Never heard of it.
    16D: Got it. Never heard of it. Thanks.

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